The YATEs take over the TE Podcast Series: Hot Chocolate with Bogolo

This is the first episode of the Series "The YATEs take over the TE Podcast." In this episode, two Young African TradeExperettes (YATEs), Laone Nthaga and Chidinma Nwodo, interview Bogolo J. Kenewendo. Bogolo is a global economist and Former Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry in Botswana, and is part of the TradeExperettes Advisory Board. 

Kellie Kemock: Hello and welcome to the TradeExperettes Podcast. My name is Kellie Kemock. 

Belén Gracia: And I'm Belén Gracia. 

Kellie Kemock: And today we have the first of a series that we're calling "The YATEs Take over the TradeExperettes Podcast." The YATEs are the Young African TradeExperettes group, and we are going to get to hear from them on multiple different topics from multiple different people. Belén, I'm just really excited for this series. 

Belén Gracia: I'm really excited too! And in this first episode that they have coined "Hot chocolate with Bogolo," we have two of the YATEs, Laone Nthaga and Chidinma Nwodo, and they are interviewing Bogolo Kenewendo, our TradeExperettes Advisorette, and former Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry in Botswana. So I cannot wait to hear their conversation. Bogolo is gonna be talking about her trade path and her career path, but also the personal challenges that she has encountered along her career. So I think it's, it's super interesting. 

Kellie Kemock: Yes. Well, let's hand it over to them.

Chidinma Nwodo: Welcome to the first episode of the TradeExperettes Podcast's Series: "The YATEs take over the Podcast," my name is Chidinma Nwodo 

Laone Nthaga: and my name Laone Nthaga, and we have coined today's episode "Hot chocolate with Bogolo". One might ask why hot chocolate? So when the YATEs were attending the WTO Public Forum last year in Geneva, one afternoon we sat around the table and had hot chocolate with Bogolo, which is actually one of her favorite beverages. This gave us a chance to share, reflect, learn from each other outside the formal setting of the WTO Forum. And today we'd like to continue that conversation and allow her to share more of her pearls of wisdom with us to inspire other young women. 

Chidinma Nwodo: Bogolo Kenewendo is a global economist and former Minister of Investment, Trade and Industry in Botswana. She's currently championing climate finance and action as a catalyst for development in Africa and the global south, in her role as Africa Director and Special Advisor of the UN High Level Climate Champions Team. Bogolo is also a vocal advocate for gender equity and protection of children's rights. In 2022, she was one of the time Time 100 Next Honorees and has been named as one of Africa's hundred most influential people by various publications over the last five years. She currently sits on the Advisory Board of TradeExperettes. Thank you Bogolo, for making the time to share your experiences and inspire more young women.

Bogolo Kenewendo: Thank you very much Chidinma and Laone, such a pleasure to be reengaging with you, even though it's virtual. 

Chidinma Nwodo: Thank you once again for your time. This first question is often criticized for not being asked to men, but we feel it is important for any young, ambitious woman to acknowledge the balancing act required to progress personally and professionally. So you're young, successful and thriving. How do you balance career, personal life and passions? Is there such a thing as balance? 

Bogolo Kenewendo: Oh, the very elusive balance. A lot of people like talking about finding balance or that it's very difficult to have balance and for me, my question is usually, but what is balance? You know? And there was a really nice analogy that I once saw of if you have different balls in your hands and you're juggling, you know, you have about three that are breakable, that are fragile, and then you have two that are Plastic or rubber. And the key is to not drop the ones that are fragile and the ones that will crack or will break. And it is having a really good focus on your family, on your friends, on your health. And making sure that that side of your life is driving well. And then a ball that is bouncy and that is like a balloon, to some extent, is really your career. And, you know, you can always bounce back, you can always do a detour, it can fall, it can come back. And, so, the way I look at it is your health, your family, your happiness, your joy, your peace are the ones that really accelerate your career progression. It is the help that you have at home that helps you to have a strong focus in your career.

And, I wouldn't be in a place where I am if I didn't have the support or a really good focus on those three things. So I am still trying to figure out what balance is, but I really do make sure that I work in spaces that I enjoy, that don't feel like too much work, because the passion is there, and I really do enjoy being in such a space.

Laone Nthaga: That's amazing, and I think that actually leads me to my next question. When you talk about ensuring that one of, well, those balls that you consider breakable are actually the support that you receive from your family and your loved ones. I'm currently reading Michelle Obama's book, The Light We Carry, and in that book she talks about the importance of having a strong support system and people you do life with. And she calls these people her "kitchen table". So, do you have a "kitchen table" or a tribe of people that you, you would say you do life with, and in selecting those people that you allow to come in close and become part of your tribe, what are the kind of qualities that you consider when you think about who you'd like to have as part of that strong support system. I mean, we obviously don't choose family. But I think, we talk about your close friends, maybe you can share more on that with us. 

Bogolo Kenewendo: It's a good point. We don't choose our family, but also we do choose who's the closest in our family. And, I find that even within my extended family, I have those that act more like siblings, instead of them being cousins. So, you know, we feed off of each other and we have good energy. So I do have a kitchen table or a kitchen cabinet, as we refer to on our side. I have good friends that I've known for a really long time and have seen me Aim, struggle, achieve, and continuously dream. And most of them have really been so supportive to my crazy dreams. Sometimes they appear to be very crazy, but you know, they'll say, yes, yes, you can do it! And then later when something happens, they'll say, oh, you know, we were really wondering what you were on about, but we see that, we see that it is now possible. 

You know, it's sometimes having crazy and ridiculous support that spurs you towards your dreams. And yet the support that's able to tell you when you're in the wrong, cause it's not just being supportive positively, it's being critical. And, it's pointing out where I'm wrong and challenging me to change or to accept different opinions. So most of my friends are great listeners, great people. I know that the spirit is in the right place. And even when they are challenging me, I take it knowing quite well that they mean well for me. 

And as for my family, you know, they've always been there, you can ask my mom what it is I do? She will never give you a response. I think the closest she got to knowing exactly what I do was when I was Minister, but that's because it's a government job and she could just say Minister. And so, the way that they show support is just unconditionally loving and giving me tasks like any other child to keep me grounded and I appreciate that. So I would say in looking for your tribe or your kitchen cabinet or table look for people that will keep you humble, that will support your dreams, but always remind you of where you're from, and, those that when you're feeling done, will remind you of your dreams and, and in particular just kindness. I think quite generally, people who are kind to you and to others, and those that will help you be a reflection of who you are and what you as a collective hope to share with the rest of the world.

Laone Nthaga: That's quite powerful. I like that. And a lot of people say, the road to the top or rather being at the top is quite lonely. Have you lost any good friends along the way? And, how do you, how did you handle that? And is it something that people should really feel guilty about? Because sometimes I think. You know, we shouldn't really guilt ourselves for growing. And you do indeed sometimes grow out of, you know, certain friendships and relationships. But how have you experienced that? 

Bogolo Kenewendo: The top is very lonely. It was one of my first advice, actually I got, when I made it to Parliament, I was reminded that you are here now, the top is lonely, there's very little air up here, very little oxygen. And, lo and behold, I lost good friends. I've lost several good friends along the way, and I think that whoever remains sees the vision of what it is that I'm trying to achieve, and hopefully they want to be part of that vision as well, or others are really not bothered by any achievements that you gain along the way because outside working hours, outside of being on the podium, truly the person remains the same, the essence, one can hope, that your essence remains the same, even as the circles or the layers of who you are become more refined or they increase the essence of who you are doesn't change. And, you know, it's good to have people that will continuously appreciate that and do not see your achievement or success, however, one communicates those, as a, as a challenge or a threat, or that you are becoming somebody else. 

You know, many times you will find that, people assume, and this was again, said by one of my mentors, people will assume that because you and you now sit around certain tables, your preference of, jokes of humor will change or, the way you speak will change. And it's never the case. And, unfortunately, sometimes when people assume that you are going to change. They then change in how they relate to you. And it's a strange relationship because you also get caught off guard by how they have changed and relating to you. So you start to be a little bit more protective and aware of your environment or your feelings around them. So, but you know what, it is life. It's part of evolution. So to anybody that might be going through that, ask yourself if a relationship is worth fighting for, and if it is, fight for it. And, where you feel that the differences are continuing to grow and there is no support of where you want to be, where you want to go, then perhaps we all just have to agree that sometimes relationships have a period and have a season and be thankful that you enjoyed that period and the season together.

Chidinma Nwodo: Thank you Bogolo for your response and highlighting the importance of having the right kind of support around you. So my next question is, you are an inspiration to so many young women, especially in Africa. When you began your career many years ago, did you ever imagine that you could occupy the kind of leadership positions that you have had? And what exactly do you think took you there?

Bogolo Kenewendo: Oh no, if you ask my 16 year old self, where do you think you will be now? She would say right here, I think my younger self was very, I was very ambitious and, I would dream up all sorts of things that I wanted to do and, And I, I really feel it. It's not about the position that I hold, but I feel that the things that I am doing, my 16 year old self would be very proud. And, it was part of the vision of being able to create impact, being able to influence policy, being able to show that your future can be whatever you make it out to be, regardless of what your background is. 

And Chidinma, you will know even, Laone, that I'm very proud about the village that I am from, I'm from Motopi, it's in the middle, some would argue it's in the middle of nowhere, but I like to stress that where I come from has been a large part of who I am and why I do what I do, because I wanted to prove that you don't have to be raised in a certain environment, you don't have to be from a well-known place in order for you to create impact or to have big dreams that scare you and those around you. So, yeah, I think, I would comfortably say I am where I thought I wanted to be. 

And what took me here is persistence. It's, youthful arrogance, youthful arrogance, meaning, you know, when you're young, I was not afraid of taking risks and, I was open to walking through any office and asking, requesting, sometimes even being a little pushy of getting something that I thought, would get me to a place that I wanted to be. So I didn't have a strong tendency to avoid risk, and I would encourage a lot of young people to take advantage of that youthful arrogance and challenge yourself to really run towards your dreams no matter how scary they are. And, having strong passion, I'm very, very passionate about the areas that I work in. I'm passionate about development, I'm passionate about women, I'm passionate about figuring out how we reduce poverty and inequalities. And so that consistent passion in those areas really kept me going. 

And then once you start to achieve stuff, the fear of failure also keeps you going. I think you reach a certain point where your level of risk aversion starts to go up and then your level of fear of failure as well as starts to go up and that's when you start to create some level of stability. But I continuously challenge myself to not fear failure, because that's how you grow. And, again, to push back on risk aversion a little bit because I'm still young and the world is so large to conquer. 

Chidinma Nwodo: Thank you so much for your very inspiring answer. I'm sure a lot of us, a lot of young women, and even young men, would be inspired knowing that you can have a dream and follow through. Like you said, it's been challenging and just being passionate about it. And this is exactly why we are happy to be having this conversation with you so that other young people around the world, and in Africa can be inspired and can know that they can achieve whatever they want to achieve if they remain focused. 

Moving on to the next question. You were the youngest minister Botswana ever had in the various roles you have occupied in Botswana and internationally. How have you navigated dealing with bias, sexism, racism, and even ageism?

Bogolo Kenewendo: Being headstrong, being, Being bullish about it and, being unapologetically who I am. I think being unapologetically authentic helps a lot to deal with those biases. And it doesn't mean that they will go away, it just means eventually people get tired of rubbing them in your face, ageism or fo, but you're too young and I have read as much I have read. I'm prepared for this meeting. I'm challenging myself in this meeting. I'm chairing this meeting. Eventually people get tired of mentioning just how young you are and that maybe you don't belong in the space because they do recognize from all of the efforts that you're putting in and how professional and prepared you are that you do belong in that space. And the same applies for sexism and racism. It's not easy and it doesn't always go away, but we must keep our head above water and remain headstrong about the things that we believe in and consistently challenge them. 

Now, if you are in a position of power you have to work on creating diversity. When I was minister, you'll look at some of the boards that I was appointing, I included a lot of young people, a lot of women in positions because that's how we start to change the way organizations look at you. Or we become more proactive about diversity, we become more proactive about inclusion and that is how you will start to change the inherent biases that exist in organizations.

And unfortunately, I had a conversation not too long ago with somebody who was talking to me about, The trouble of being the first, that sometimes you find yourself in a space where there haven't been a lot of people that look like you, whether it's by color, or a sex, or age. And so being the first person you will get the first load of, you will get the first load of trouble. And you know, you have to remember that one of the burdens of being the first is carrying that trouble, that load of trouble and being able to navigate it and hopefully creating a better path for those that will come after you, for those that will follow your footsteps. Because we do hope that when you get somewhere and you are the first, that you will not be the last but instant you're letting down the ladder or you're creating a path for many others to follow. So, there is a little bit of peace and it's not easy, but there's a little bit of peace in knowing that I'm not just doing this for myself and hopefully creating a better path for others that will come after me.

Laone Nthaga: Thanks for that. When you're actually talking, I'm actually thinking for you to actually be able to navigate some of these biases, as Chidinma mentioned, a big part of that is actually recognizing your own value, and as you mentioned, be headstrong about the fact that you do deserve a seat at the table, you do deserve, you know, to be part of discussions and decision making, and that you are actually just not there by chance, which I think a lot of us second guess ourselves when we, you know face-to-face with certain resistance or biases in the different spaces that we find ourselves in. And a recurring theme when we talk about professional development, particularly when it comes to youth and women, is grappling with its concept that has been called the imposter syndrome. In your experience, I mean, growing up as a young, ambitious person and my new favorite word is having that youthful arrogance. Have you experienced the imposter syndrome? Is there a silver bullet to getting over it? And basically what, what's your advice around that on, on how young people can navigate feeling like, maybe I shouldn't be asking too much, maybe, I shouldn't be pushing that much in whatever spaces that we find ourselves in.

Bogolo Kenewendo: Right? So, yes, I don't think I know anybody who's never suffered imposter syndrome, but the way I think about imposter syndrome is whenever I ask for something or I want something or I really wanna talk to somebody, I will have strong flatters of butterflies in my stomach. And when I have them, I know for sure that this is where I belong, that this is something that I must definitely do. So when I have imposter syndrome, to me, it makes me feel like, oh, then I am in the right space. Then I am doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Because if I look around the room and I think I'm the smartest person there, then I do not belong in that room. If a table is not scaring me or those around it, then it means I'm not growing. So, I have flipped that social anxiety and imposter syndrome feeling to be, well, this is definitely the right space, this is the right space for me to grow, this is the right space to challenge myself and to prove to myself indeed that, that I can do it. 

And to your point, Laone, if you are in a room, you are not there by chance. Opportunity follows the doers. Okay? You got an opportunity to be in a certain space because you did something, because you did something that made people recognize you for that. It does not matter if when you compare it to everybody else that's in that space, it seems minute that is a challenge for you to do more. It's a challenge for you to be more, and to finesse your skills a little bit more, so that what you do is not in competition with the others in the room, but it's in competition with the past you that has brought you to that space.

Laone Nthaga: That's amazing. That's definitely true, that's definitely true. I think we just need to be a bit more confident about where our hard work gets us. 

Bogolo Kenewendo: Yes. While saying that, I do take a couple of breaths: breathe in, breathe out; breathe in, breathe out; you can do this. I don't want anybody going away thinking, no, I automatically switch my butterflies and social anxiety and I become super confident. You have to, you know, take a moment. Appreciate where you are. Breathe in, and remember why you are here to begin with, remember why you got started, it helps in calming you down. It helps in reflecting on what your opening conversation is going to be. If you remember why you got started. That is one of the questions that people are going to ask you. Oh, how are you here? What did you do to be here? Oh, what's your story? So you've already rehashed your story in your mind and you're ready to go. 

Laone Nthaga: And I think one thing you also stressed them when you shared with us around our hot chocolate was really around being prepared. That it's also very important to ensure that when you are given certain platforms, you ensure that you are prepared, and you don't bring it upon yourself for people to question your being in a certain place. So that's quite important as well. 

Bogolo Kenewendo: Preparation is key, and as I mentioned, when I was in office, that was my weapon of choice, being overly prepared and making sure that everybody understands that I am an asset to this space and I bring value and my value couldn't be challenged. And that can only happen with, with being prepared and, and actually listening to other people and bringing something to the table. 

Laone Nthaga: Yeah, definitely. So throughout our conversation, you've mentioned a lot about your mentors, about, you know, having exposure to mentorship and the YATEs program itself was born out of yours and Hannah Norberg's passion for mentorship. What would you say is the most notable benefit that you've gotten from mentorship, and can you say somebody can succeed in professional and personal development without a mentor?

Bogolo Kenewendo: I am firstly very, very grateful that when I told Hannah about this idea of mentoring young African women in trade, that she was excited about it and everybody in the TradeExperettes was excited to support it. And, one of the reasons why I've been such a strong advocate for mentorship when I chose to study economics, it was because I won an essay competition, and I was sitting around with the former president who was an economist, former governor who was an economist, former deputy governor who was an economist. And this was the perks of winning this essay writing competition. So that's how I chose that I wanted to study economics because all these very important people around me had studied economics. 

Now, the kicker is when I finished university, I wasn't exactly sure how to get started in my career with an economics degree, because I'm not going to automatically become the Deputy Governor of the Central bank or the Governor or the President. And so I needed a little bit of guidance. I got excited about the opportunities that lay ahead of being an economist, but I didn't know where to get started. So, having the opportunity to work with Dr. Keith Jefferies, who then became a very good mentor to me, was really helpful in thinking about the opportunities that exist in being an economist outside banking, because that's how I first started. Can I please job-shadow you for a week so that I can learn a little bit more about what economists do? And I think had I not had that opportunity, I really wouldn't have had a good course in my career path, or I would've taken a completely different one. All I knew was that I wanted to be in policy, but at the time, the roles that were available were to go into banking and they were obviously offering a lot of money and, you know, feeling quite attractive, but it just didn't feel like I wanted to sit in a bank. So, having Dr Keith Jefferies came along and give me that opportunity, and talk to me through what exists in the space was very important. And then many other mentors during my career. 

I think it's beneficial to have a mentor. It's also beneficial to have a role model. Now the difference is sometimes a role model is too far out of reach, you don't really get to talk to them, but you see the paths that they have taken to being where they are. Or sometimes it's about you seeing the way they carry themselves, or you see their religion or their family, and you think that part of their life is something that you would like to emulate or, take a few tips from. I think both are very important. Having a mentor helps you deal with some of the challenges that will come at you really quickly, especially as a young person growing fast in that career. 

Sometimes, not so beneficial because others will then use it as an opportunity to say, well, at your age, I was still doing my degree. And, by that time I've finished my master's. So it's not really helpful when somebody wants to make sure that they are the yardstick for your life. And to coach the great Jay-Z, he said, don't put limitations on my life because they are limitations on your life. And so we just have to be careful about the boundaries that we have with our mentors and that they don't necessarily try to use their lives as they are stuck in your life. And I have tried this with me, on my mentees just to be aware, cuz sometimes, you know, my mentees have crazy dreams and sometimes I feel like, how is that even possible? But then I remember, no, no, it's not for me to figure it out, it's for me to share how you could navigate a certain space because you haven't asked me to critique your dream, you have asked me to facilitate maybe with an introduction or to just listen to your crazy dreams. So, finding that nice balance of being a mentor and a mentee and what the relationship looks like is very important, and I would recommend that relationship to anybody.

Chidinma Nwodo: Thank you Bogolo! I have definitely learned so much listening to you. I especially appreciate your answer and perspective on dealing with imposter syndrome. This is an issue that a lot of young people deal with, myself included, and you've definitely given us something to think about and a way to deal with this issue and hopefully, not just myself, but other people listening to this podcast, this series ,would find a way or find a way to deal with this particular issue. 

I also wish we had more time to delve into a lot of other issues, but we have to wrap up this conversation. So our final question is, what is your dream for the next generation of African young women in trade?

Bogolo Kenewendo: Agency. My dream for the next generation of young African women in trade, in stem, anywhere, is agency and economic agency to be clear. I want us to all work towards empowerment, but empowerment that gets us to owning our space, and to owning it in a manner that is authentically us, because sometimes we create space and I hope that this will never be the case for the YATEs, sometimes we create space and, in creating that spaces like we are creating a, a mold as well of "no, but you have to be like this, you have to speak like this, you have to look like this. So my dream would be we create space for you, but you come in and own the space. You have full agency, you're able to share your thoughts in a manner that matters to you, and you're able to occupy higher and bigger spaces beyond what we have created. And I wish so, and I dream so for so many other young women that are busy trying to find their way. 

And I wanna cite this, I hope she won't mind, but at COP 27, there's the children, “Children's Radio,” I think it's called, and there was Maryanne, who was interviewing me, after the interview we hugged and she said to me, it is so good to see a young woman from not a rich or political family pioneering and going into new spaces. You may not think it, but you know, you, you are the first we're seeing and is giving hope for us to be doing more. Now, I was so happy the other day I saw that her podcast has been nominated for a global podcast award. And that is the kind of thing that I dream for young women, that they might see themselves first in somebody, but they go on to become somebody else's first and they go on to champion young women in different, bigger, varied spaces that would bring me so much joy. 

Chidinma Nwodo: Your professional journey is definitely an inspiration. Your personal life and just listening to you is so inspiring. And I believe, I know that myself, Laone, and I mean so many young women around the world in Africa, we definitely have a lot to learn. And, thank you so much for your response. And thank you for being here with us today. 

Bogolo Kenewendo: Thank you very much, Chidinma and I think I really wanna stress this, that, you know, it might seem picture perfect from the outside, but every journey towards anybody's dreams, it's mard with challenges and with pivoting and with take learning to, take a detour and Figuring out how it takes you back to your dreams. It is never a step ladder all the way up as it's usually been depicted, you know, it can be amazing, it can be a jungle gym. What's important is to remain steadfast on what your dreams are. Now, do not be afraid when your dreams also change, because your perspective of life and of what's possible changes and we should never feel beholden to a certain path because that's what you studied. It's okay to branch out. The world is full of opportunities. And I would just encourage anybody to really remain open to the opportunities, remain open to change to a change in your dreams. Don't let that scare you. The world is for us to enjoy. 

Laone Nthaga: That's amazing. I think every interaction with you always leaves me wanting more for myself, wanting to do more, and really believing that I can do so much more. So it's such a privilege and, I think all the YATEs are quite privileged to have this opportunity for both our personal and professional growth. So thank you so much. 

That's all from us folks for today, and we look forward to having you on the next episode of the "YATEs Takeover the TradeExperettess Podcast" edition. 

Kellie Kemock: The TradeExperettes Podcast is hosted by me, Kellie Kemock,

Belén Gracia: and by me Belén Gracia, and I'm also the executive producer. 

Kellie Kemock: If you would like to know more about the TradeExperettes, you can find us online at tradeexperettes.org, on LinkedIn and Twitter. Join us!